ARISTASIA FORUM ARCHIVE

These forums are archived. For current activity please go to Heartbook
It is currently Thu September 21st, 7:50 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Thu October 14th, 4:10 pm 
Offline
Doing well
Doing well
User avatar

Joined: Mon July 20th, 7:38 am
Posts: 37
Gender: Chelana (Blonde)
Nationality: Quirinelle
In order to see if we can stimulate some Forum discussion, here are some provoking thoughts!

To the apparent paradox represented by Schrödinger's cat an increasing number of Tellurian physicists would now give the answer that the cat is indeed both alive and dead: that the cosmos countlessly bifurcates into multiple parallel cosmoses, in this case, (at least) one in which the cat is alive and at least one other in which she is dead. 

While this may sound like science fiction, it is increasingly the way sub-atomic physicists are starting to think. To quote one illustration: if your right-hand neighbor is hit by a baseball at a game, there is another world where your left-hand neighbor was hit, one where you were hit, one where they don't play baseball at all, etc. 

Not long ago a famous physicist suggested that "backward" time travel might be impossible because nature would not allow the paradoxes involved. But are not time-paradoxes only paradoxical if one is thinking of a single time-stream? And in any case are not effects that precede their causes commonly known in quantum physics?

The mind rebels at the infinitude of universes implied. But are they truly infinite? Or do they only seem so to us because we are thinking of them in terms of space/time? And even if all the said universes are space/time universes, the medium in which they co-exist is not itself space/time. They are not lined up side by side in space, nor does each one begin only after the previous one has ended. May they not indeed interweave and convolve upon each other in ways we cannot imagine, making them, while indeed multiple, not an endless proliferation?

And what of the soul? While "I" exist (and am hit by a baseball) in one cosmos, who is the "I" who was narrowly missed by the ball in another, and the I who sneezed immediately afterward, and the I who coughed instead - etc., ad (apparently) infinitum?

And since maid is she-who-has-the-power-of-choice, while I am making moral choices "here", is another me necessarily making immoral choices "elsewhere"? And is free will thereby negated?

Just a few thoughts to grapple with. 

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Fri October 15th, 8:56 am 
Offline
Two Stars Already!
Two Stars Already!
User avatar

Joined: Sat July 18th, 12:27 pm
Posts: 66
Gender: Melini (Brunette)
My, that's quite a lot of questions in one single post. :shock: But they surely are <i>very</i> interesting.

I started studying the basic of quantum physics back at school, but I never quite grasped the way scientists come up with these theories.

My reply is a bit short, but what I basically think about it is: Maid is the one with the power of choice, and that choice itself is the "elimination" of the other possibilities in that point in time and space. I think we can accept the idea of other and higher levels of existence, but not of "parallel" ones and a consequent "fragmentation" of a maid's soul into so many different universes just to cover the other-possibilities-which-did-not-come-to-be.

This indeed gives much food for thought and meditation. Forgive me if my reply is so short and if it lacks some more argumentation, but I just wanted to present this little piece of what I think and hope it helps the discussion forward.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Fri October 15th, 11:14 am 
Offline
Settling in
Settling in
User avatar

Joined: Sat July 18th, 4:25 am
Posts: 22
Gender: Melini (Brunette)
Nationality: Novaryan
This is a very fascinating topic that raises the whole question of the relation of Aristasian thought to Tellurian "scientific" thought (ie. empirical/material-based speculation and application). 

 While some people have imagined that we "reject science" that has never been true. What we reject is the purely arbitrary dogma that material observations and mental reflection thereon are our only source of knowledge. Only one civilization in Telluria has ever believed that - the post 17th-century European culture, which by military and economic force, and also the "persuasion of success", has expanded to the point where it covers most of the Tellurian globe and many people simply cannot imagine other ways of thinking. 

Material science, however, can and does provide valuable information. It would do a far better job if (as in the Motherland) it were allied with traditional thought instead of having staged an arrogant "revolution" against it. But even in its current ideologically compromised state it is capable of providing valuable information. 

Honored Kohime-chei's reply here illustrates one important point: that where spiritual or metaphysical truth conflicts with the speculations of material science, the former must take precedence. Why? Because material observations can be flawed, and so can the speculations based on them, whereas eternal principles cannot be flawed. 

Does this mean that any argument based on Principle instantly trumps any material-scientific hypothesis? No, for several reasons of which I adduce two:

1. In many cases the two do not overlap and each should be regarded as more proficient in its own domain. 

2. While eternal Principles cannot be wrong, our application of them can be. So while we are correct to say material speculation z is incorrect if it contradicts eternal principle a, we still need to discuss whether such a contradiction actually exists. 

However the fact that Principle must take primacy is inalterable, and attempts to bring traditional teachings "into line with science" are contemptibly weak-minded. We recall (among countless examples) a translation of an ancient Sanskrit text in which the term used to describe the beginning of manifestation is rendered "the Big Bang". To mix up principial Truth with a currently popularized theory which may or may not outlast this century is an absurdity, and one that completely inverts the proper relation of unchanging Principle to temporal speculation. 

I apologize for not having addressed Herr Schrödinger's feline companion at all, but this seemed an opportune moment to outline some of the underlying principles of such a discussion. 

_________________
My sword guards the Motherland and those who serve her.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Mon October 18th, 12:23 pm 
Offline
New Girl
New Girl
User avatar

Joined: Thu April 29th, 2:05 pm
Posts: 6
Gender: Chelana (Blonde)
Nationality: Novaryan
Rayati ladies: forgive me if the following passage is confusing and rather... well, blonde, but the thoughts buzzing about my head aren't making much sense either!

Let's begin by addressing the kitty-cat in question (poor little kitty!!). The theory suggests, as I understand it, that while the cat in the box is physically either alive or dead, in our own minds she may be either as well. If the interests conflict, and we believe she is dead while she is actually alive, or vice-versa, then this presents the issue: that the cat is both alive and dead.

However, this makes little sense to me, being a Tellurian amateuse in the field of science -- particularily biology -- and a mostly self-taught student of philosophy. The matter deals in the field of quantum physics, as I have read, but does physics not deal with the physical? And yet, oddly, half of this equation speaks of the matter of our own personal perception, which would fall under a different field entirely. this does not present much of an Aristasian argument, but it is a problem which says to me that science is still very much flawed.

However, that being said, it has always struck me that personal perception of something can make it very real, in a sense. Since I was a teeny-teenie myself, I had always thought that if someone believed in something with enough conviction, and there is no question in their mind that it is right, then it is, in fact, right. Even if a world we believe in only exists in our minds, it exists in itself, and bother all physicality. If the cat is alive in our minds but dead in the box, then it is, in fact, both. But I believe that mental and spiritual perception take precedence over the physical, simply because our perception of an event or thing rules out everything else: if someone who hallucinates on a regular basis sees another individual in the room, what is physical does not matter to them. What matters is that there is someone else in the room with them who was not there before. They can tell themselves all they want that they're just seeing things, but that doesn't change the fact that they are indeed seeing things, and doesn't make it any less unsettling.

Just thought I would put this out there: I'm sorry if it's a little knotted!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Wed October 20th, 6:58 pm 
Offline
Twice-crowned contributor
Twice-crowned contributor
User avatar

Joined: Fri July 17th, 5:29 pm
Posts: 202
Location: In the sunny south building the blessed Sanctuary, praise be to Dea!
Gender: Chelana (Blonde)
Nationality: Novaryan
The point of Herr Schrödinger's cat is that certain sub-atomic particles appear to be and not be in a particular state simultaneously. Herr Schrödinger was setting up a situation in which an event at the microscopic level at which these "contradictions" (as seen from the point of view of ordinary macro-physics) take place were tied to an event in the macroscopic world - in this case the life or death of a cat. If the condition of a microscopic particle were to trigger an event in the macroscopic world, and the microscopic particle were in both state A and state B at once, what would this mean for the macroscopic world in which such contradictions seem to be impossible?

Interestingly, a recent experiment has been performed which appears to have induced a quantum "contradiction" into an object visible to the naked eye. Some theorists have suggested that if this could be done at even larger scales, it might hold the key to such things as time travel or movement between parallel universes.

Another interesting recent theory suggests that the so-called "big bang" is actually a recurrent phenomenon and that beyond a certain point the universe will re-contract into a tiny point, awaiting another big bang.

This, of course, is precisely in accord with the Filianic doctrine of the in-breathing and out-breathing of the Cosmos by the Dark Mother - and also with other traditional views of the nature of time-space.

What would be foolish - and, as honored Lady Aquila says, weak-minded - would be to latch onto such theories as "scientific support" for traditional truth. The proper relation of material science to the traditional science of metaphysics is precisely the reverse of what that implies. What we can say is that the so-called "big bounce" theory is compatible with traditional science and therefore it need not be rejected.

The "big bang" theory does not allow for a regeneration of the cosmos, since entropy would have exhausted all its potential. This does not necessarily contradict traditional science either, since we have no idea what form the in-breathing would take in purely physical terms. It may be that once the out-breathing has run its course and the laws of physics are essentially at an end, something different will supervene - something that has no relation to those laws.

Either scenario, and no doubt many others, are possible. Traditional science has nothing to say in the matter of adjudicating between them as to whether one, or any, may be nearer the truth. Traditional science must necessarily regard physical description of the effects of the laws of metaphysics as something of a side-issue.

Here is what the Scriptures have to say on such matters:

The Gospel of Our Mother God wrote:
36. It is not needful that you should seek knowledge of the highest things outside the sacred Mythos and My words. 37. For I have revealed to you all that is needful that you should attain liberation; and what I have not revealed, that is not needful.

38. But if you shall discourse on that which is not needful, I give to you three words. Let you not become forgetful of them: 39. That there can be no certainty beyond the seed of Truth, therefore you may speak of likelihood only; 40. That you shall let your speculation be harmonic with the seed of Truth, for speculation that is dissonant gives not knowledge, but leads to the abyss of those that have rejected Truth; 41. And you that have care of My children, let them not become confounded by dissonant thought and work.

42. But beyond all else is this word: that the purpose of speculation is that mind and soul shall grow with the seed of Truth 43. And any discourse that leads away from inward love of Truth; be that discourse high and pure, be it even harmonic, yet it is the spawn of khear, and you, My children, shall turn from it.

44. Yet be not afraid, for the seed of Truth shall be your guide and your protector and shall bring you to deliverance. 45. And I give to you one word which shall conquer every danger. 46. That word is love, and the humility that flows from love. 47. Receive with love the seed of Truth and all things shall be well.




_________________
Image

Read The Mushroom Patch - a fun-gal outbreak in Elektra.

The column that supports the spotty top.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Wed November 17th, 5:54 am 
Offline
Doing well
Doing well
User avatar

Joined: Wed August 19th, 6:01 am
Posts: 38
Location: East Coast USA
Gender: Chelana (Blonde)
Nationality: Vintesque
I only just now saw this conversation... or... was it in another time stream that I missed it and this is the one I followed along? Keeping track of all those time streams is such arduous work!

I just found the most amazing little slide ruler- The Scale of the Universe


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Wed November 17th, 11:48 am 
Offline
Doing well
Doing well
User avatar

Joined: Mon July 20th, 7:38 am
Posts: 37
Gender: Chelana (Blonde)
Nationality: Quirinelle
Thank you! I have been playing with this wonderful elektra-toy and I love it!

What is even more amusing is the "moral" some people draw from these size comparisons. This is shown with devastating wit in The Opium of the Suburbs. People really do think like that!

My favorite quotation:

the World of the Nine-o’Clock News is underwitten by the Andromeda Galaxy.

So outlandish, and yet so true!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Nine Million Lives of Schrödinger's Cat
PostPosted: Sun November 28th, 8:13 pm 
Offline
Doing well
Doing well
User avatar

Joined: Wed August 19th, 6:01 am
Posts: 38
Location: East Coast USA
Gender: Chelana (Blonde)
Nationality: Vintesque
A rather interesting lecture on the mathematics of crochet and how it is capable of describing Hyperbolic Space:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/marga ... _reef.html


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

Aristasia Central